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TOPIC: Melee VS Shooting

Melee VS Shooting 3 years 4 months ago #2447

  • icemansk
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Ok, we have played several games now and have come to the conclusion that shooting is very weak vs melee.

In all the games we have played only 2 models have actually died from being shot while we lose at least one to melee every game.

To easy to keep melee types alive with the movement distances vs average ranged weapons range and using cover.

Put 3 into power and light armor, in cover I will always have 4 power die with target of 3+. Average gun won't do much to that at power 4 and I had to get on average a 6+ to hit them. Once they get into short range of weapon, it's pretty much to late.

It is to easy to shrug off shooting attacks because of several modifiers for the model being shot at. Fast moving, cover, armor mods. To many added power die from cover and armor pretty much makes shooting useless IMO since the average power is 4 or less on most guns. Maybe remove the power adds from cover? it was already harder to hit you now you get to add power dice to the pool?

With melee it is just the opposite, lots of added dice for the attacker (charge, user +1 or 2 on most weapons, extra guys close to you, martial artist is way OP).

Put 3-4 into fighting and 3 into power, on a charge you're gonna hit on 4+, now I will be smacking you with 5 or more power die vs no modifiers unless you have armor as the defender (rarely will cover be of any benefit as you can just move to a pt. that removes it on the charge).
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Melee VS Shooting 3 years 4 months ago #2461

  • Anton
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Out of curiosity, what factions are you playing?

Stakers and Reclaimers have access to a decent amount of Power 5 weapons (Laser Rifles and Hunting Rifles), and in the hands of an experienced user with a Shooting of 4 or 5, you're often going to be hitting with a Power of 6. There aren't too many Characters that can withstand that outside of cover, other than a Stitcher with medium armor.

My experiences have been that shooting is quite deadly. Power 3 shooting isn't very effective, agreed, but if used in mass, by a lot of green characters, it does what it's designed to do, which is add suppression markers and make people keep their heads down.

I'd love to hear the specifics of your experiences with shooting (and melee). What sorts of games have you been playing?




icemansk wrote:
Ok, we have played several games now and have come to the conclusion that shooting is very weak vs melee.

In all the games we have played only 2 models have actually died from being shot while we lose at least one to melee every game.

To easy to keep melee types alive with the movement distances vs average ranged weapons range and using cover.

Put 3 into power and light armor, in cover I will always have 4 power die with target of 3+. Average gun won't do much to that at power 4 and I had to get on average a 6+ to hit them. Once they get into short range of weapon, it's pretty much to late.

It is to easy to shrug off shooting attacks because of several modifiers for the model being shot at. Fast moving, cover, armor mods. To many added power die from cover and armor pretty much makes shooting useless IMO since the average power is 4 or less on most guns. Maybe remove the power adds from cover? it was already harder to hit you now you get to add power dice to the pool?

With melee it is just the opposite, lots of added dice for the attacker (charge, user +1 or 2 on most weapons, extra guys close to you, martial artist is way OP).

Put 3-4 into fighting and 3 into power, on a charge you're gonna hit on 4+, now I will be smacking you with 5 or more power die vs no modifiers unless you have armor as the defender (rarely will cover be of any benefit as you can just move to a pt. that removes it on the charge).
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Melee VS Shooting 3 years 4 months ago #2465

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We are playing 150 RU games using the scenarios. I have been playing Stitchers using Tranq guns with two hunters and break action rifles for generic fillers.

This could be all moot at higher levels of RUs.

This is against Generic Brawlers type, trained or green.

Now hitting the target is base 5+ for most shots in a game if I am trying to be a shooty list (stay away from the guys with clubs). Make them fast moving or in cover, it now becomes a 6+/7+. I can remove 1 TN for aimed shot, if I moved it gets worse for me.

Scoped makes it really a pain in close, now we are looking at a base 6+ before we add/subtract anything to the shot.

Lets say I hit them...So power 4 vs target Power 3 + cover (+1 or +2 P) and light armor makes it an even roll or worse in the targets favor, needing 3+ to shrug off damage (medium armor makes it worse as you know for the shooter). This is the most common scenario unless you have the guns you listed. Even with no armor it's still an even roll. I have yet to see anyone not skirt thru cover of some type.

Suppression, target is melee type, so high fighting (4/5) and nerves (3). The need a 4+ to pass as trained and have Nerves of steel, so suppression won't matter till I hit them a bit more.

In a campaign I could buy Narco guns to up my power dice, but can't take them in one off games, very rare and hunters only get rare.

Now lets look at the scenario with melee. I take a spear, P+1, I have 3 power and reach. I have a fighting of 4 or 5 (I didn't put anything in shooting and who cares about wits as a melee and I have a spear). I need a 4+, gonna get a hit pretty easy on 4 or 5 dice, 5 or 6 on charge. Damage 4 P +1 for charge, so 5 dice needing 4+. Target only gets his/her armor if they have it light or medium, 3+ on 3/4 dice. Now if anyone is with me, it gets worse for the target really fast.

These are specific examples that we have had come up often in one-off games, so melee is a bit better than shooting when you don't care about your shooting attribute as a melee type.

Also, if the spear is used at range, I get 4 or 5 dice to hit you with, so bonus there also since I put 1 in shooting and 1 in wits.

So this may not happen in faction specific games, but you can min/max the generics to do this type of thing with melee troops trained and have 3 melee monsters out there with spears and 2 green shooters to get in the way or suppress.

So I guess, I believe cover should not provide a P bonus, it already makes it harder to hit, and most shots are 5+. This would make "normal" guns (P 3 or 4) more effective.
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Melee VS Shooting 3 years 4 months ago #2482

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That's great feedback, thanks a lot for taking the time to comment!

In general, shooting shouldn't be all that effective for Stitchers with Green and trained Characters for a couple of reasons. First off, because Stitchers aren't really designed to be "shooty", but also because they aren't likely to have high Shooting until Veteran. That pretty much holds true for everyone. However, once you get into the 300 RU range, shooting definitely becomes a commanding prescience over the battlefield.

Keep in mind that Reclaimers and Stakers are really the "shooty" factions (and so are Unicephalon and the ARHK, which are still upcoming) Drifters (and the Church of Fun) are melee, and Stitchers (and the Vale) are kind of in between.

At 100 RUs, you can have 4 Reclaimer Technos with laser rifles. All Power 5 weapons.

For Stakers, you can have a Veteran Outrider with 25 RUs left over, and that Outrider armed with a hunting rifle should be able to drop one character a turn on average.

What does your Stitcher list look like at 150 RUs?

One thing that I FAQ'd, is that Narco guns are rare for Stitchers. Also, you can try web casters, which would work really well to help up your game.

Also, if you are setting up against a melee crew, you should have some open ground in between for them to cover to get to you. It's in that killing field where the odds even up.

And finally, I am tinkering with some stuff with non-lethal weapons, to make them a little more effective.




icemansk wrote:
We are playing 150 RU games using the scenarios. I have been playing Stitchers using Tranq guns with two hunters and break action rifles for generic fillers.

This could be all moot at higher levels of RUs.

This is against Generic Brawlers type, trained or green.

Now hitting the target is base 5+ for most shots in a game if I am trying to be a shooty list (stay away from the guys with clubs). Make them fast moving or in cover, it now becomes a 6+/7+. I can remove 1 TN for aimed shot, if I moved it gets worse for me.

Scoped makes it really a pain in close, now we are looking at a base 6+ before we add/subtract anything to the shot.

Lets say I hit them...So power 4 vs target Power 3 + cover (+1 or +2 P) and light armor makes it an even roll or worse in the targets favor, needing 3+ to shrug off damage (medium armor makes it worse as you know for the shooter). This is the most common scenario unless you have the guns you listed. Even with no armor it's still an even roll. I have yet to see anyone not skirt thru cover of some type.

Suppression, target is melee type, so high fighting (4/5) and nerves (3). The need a 4+ to pass as trained and have Nerves of steel, so suppression won't matter till I hit them a bit more.

In a campaign I could buy Narco guns to up my power dice, but can't take them in one off games, very rare and hunters only get rare.

Now lets look at the scenario with melee. I take a spear, P+1, I have 3 power and reach. I have a fighting of 4 or 5 (I didn't put anything in shooting and who cares about wits as a melee and I have a spear). I need a 4+, gonna get a hit pretty easy on 4 or 5 dice, 5 or 6 on charge. Damage 4 P +1 for charge, so 5 dice needing 4+. Target only gets his/her armor if they have it light or medium, 3+ on 3/4 dice. Now if anyone is with me, it gets worse for the target really fast.

These are specific examples that we have had come up often in one-off games, so melee is a bit better than shooting when you don't care about your shooting attribute as a melee type.

Also, if the spear is used at range, I get 4 or 5 dice to hit you with, so bonus there also since I put 1 in shooting and 1 in wits.

So this may not happen in faction specific games, but you can min/max the generics to do this type of thing with melee troops trained and have 3 melee monsters out there with spears and 2 green shooters to get in the way or suppress.

So I guess, I believe cover should not provide a P bonus, it already makes it harder to hit, and most shots are 5+. This would make "normal" guns (P 3 or 4) more effective.
Last Edit: 3 years 4 months ago by Anton.
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