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TOPIC: Wreck Age 2nd edition basic rules beta

Wreck Age 2nd edition basic rules beta 3 months 1 week ago #2829

  • DarkTraveler777
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Anton wrote:
DarkTraveler777 wrote:
jlopatin wrote:
I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anything, but when in a 40k game does anyone roll a single die?

Every. Single. Time.

Yes, you roll a handful of dice when a unit is shooting, but what do those individual dice represent? The individual models' actions within the unit. Each dice is a bolter shot, or a lasgun shot.

In 40k each die represents an attack in melee, or an attack with a weapon. 40k uses a single D6 system just like Wreck-Age. And 40k has problems with modifiers. That is why you have things with 2+ invulnerable saves that are a scourge of the game currently. If you can only give bonuses or penalties ranging from 2-6 you are severely limited in how to represent a wide range of variables both in terms of difficulty and power level.

Unless a character has an attribute of 1, we still use a dice pool system against variable target numbers and modifiers on top of that. I think what Tim is arguing for, is the removal of variable numbers in the dice pools, and shifting only to target number modifiers.

We did some extensive playtesting with that, and there were issues that I found with it, that I laid out above... but I'd really like to hear what other people's experiences are with doing things differently. It's totally possible that I'm missing the forest for the trees on something here.

Right, and if you just have target numbers you can still only assign variables between 2-6. That is limiting in terms of providing nuance to the degree of difficulty for an action.
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Wreck Age 2nd edition basic rules beta 3 months 1 week ago #2830

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DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Anton wrote:
DarkTraveler777 wrote:
timlillig wrote:
Anton wrote:

So your suggestion would be Charging is a -1TN and +1 Power?

Absolutely not.

Drop all of the +1 fighting, +1 Power, and other modifiers that add or subtract from the numbers of dice rolled.

Again, my suggestion has nothing to do with the specifics of charging. So, drop those modifiers everywhere they appear- cover, outnumbering, charging, traits (berzerker, accurate, pistol, etc...), armor, and so on. Only use adjustments to TN. So, charging would be -1TN to the fight roll and -1TN to the damage roll. The only place it might make sense to keep the +1 to an attribute would be melee weapons.

I am going to respectfully disagree here.

Using a D6 system limits the number of modifiers that can be applied to a given roll. 40k is a great example of a game that suffers from relying purely on the modifiers for a single D6 roll.

Since TNs of 7+ are supposed to be exceedingly difficult, we are left with a range of 2-6 for most rolls. There are so many potential variables that need to be accounted for in most gaming situations that simply relying on +/- for TN seems limiting.

Adding dice to attributes is another way to add bonuses (or penalties) to an action without inflating the TN to a ridiculous level, or reducing it to the point where making the roll is presumably a waste of time (2+ TN are almost a guaranteed success unless you recently pissed off the dice gods).

If we were using D10's or D20's then pure modifiers would make sense, but I think the range of potential outcomes with a D6 make only a modifier system limited. Adding to the dice pool allows the odds to be changed without making the difficulty of the roll change. That is a useful mechanic for many RPG/Tabletop situations.

I think this touches on an argument we had early on... what dice system do we go with. I know some people vehemently disagree, but I think d6 with mixed modifiers has a lot of variability to it, without the "flat" feeling of d20 or worse, percentile dice... You CAN create a system that has minimal modifiers with other dice, but I feel that those "weird" dice still create an extra barrier to entry for people. Now you can counter that complex rules might also create a barrier to entry, and we could flatten it all out and make it easier to learn. It's a balancing act in my opinion, and ultimately, after playing just about every system out there, I still think that d6 with mixed modifiers offers the most variability on the tabletop without it feeling like you're playing a game of "pick a card, any card". There is a reason why the Star Frontiers ruleset isn't a widely lauded system, 30 years later.

I wasn't meaning to go that far back in the conversation, I am just wary of a system that limits the dice modifiers to what can be rolled on a D6 (even with exploding 6's available it is too limiting).

I am a fan of modifiers either effecting the TN or the number of dice rolled (or both!). I think the current system for Wreck Age is a good middle ground for an otherwise limiting dice mechanic.

Battletech's 2D6 system can use just TN modifiers because the range of 2-12 allows for more variables to be introduced.

Similarly, Warmachine/Hordes 2D6 + Stat + 1D6 boost system works because it can allow for diverse TN modifiers, and it can add or substitute dice from the base 2D6 roll.

In my opinion Warhammer 40k's system doesn't work because it is limited to what can be rolled on a D6. Take for example the chart for how melee attacks work where you take the attacker's strength stat and compare it to the defender's toughness stat to achieve a TN.




At a certain point the system breaks down, especially at the extreme ends of the spectrum. Toughness es or Strengths at a certain level lose meaning because they are providing TNs that are identical to other levels of those stats. That is a bad system in my opinion due to the limitations of a D6's variable range.

I totally get what you're saying... I think that what Wreck Age tries to do, is use the 3.5 average and the bell curve of the results to get to what you can reasonably expect out of an attack. In 40k, a Strength 1 (Power 1) weapon cannot hurt a Power 5 character. In Wreck Age, it's just VERY unlikely to, unless one character rolls a success on the attack, and the defending character bombs their defensive power test. There's not a huge difference in results generally, but the nuance is critically important in my opinion.
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Wreck Age 2nd edition basic rules beta 3 months 1 week ago #2831

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Also, being a skirmish, there is a perceived obligation on my part to make things more "meaty". You control 3-7 characters on average... each of those characters should be able to do more, act more "realistically" and have more skin in the game. In 40k warmachine, and other unit-based games, you can lose entire squads and it makes no difference. In Wreck Age, losing a few characters is much more likely to lose you the game (depending on the objectives).
Last Edit: 3 months 1 week ago by Anton.
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Wreck Age 2nd edition basic rules beta 3 months 1 week ago #2832

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Hi. I'm pretty excited to join the WA scene. Actually, I picked a core set and a couple of add-ons (and even supported a KS campaign) last year and sadly have yet to play. I thought the rules were a bit dense back then. Now, I just finished going through the new rules and I think they make more sense in this version. I still think they are a bit intimidating, especially for someone who is fairly new to miniature gaming. Although it may seem complicated and the learning curve steep, I think once I play it a few times or watch some more games it should start to be clear. One thing I thought was that it would be nice if there were 2 versions of the gameplay: Beginners with simplified rules and Advanced with all rules applying. Perhaps even a 3rd version -Competitive level or RPG realism. For example, at beginners level, the main objective(s) would be something like a death match or capture the flag/post/resources with less modifiers, less actions, less end-round modifiers and suppression tests. I believe this would ease the learning curve and make someone like me feel like I'm actually playing the game (especially since my game time is severely limited). Thanks for listening!
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Wreck Age 2nd edition basic rules beta 3 months 1 week ago #2833

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insomniak1 wrote:
Hi. I'm pretty excited to join the WA scene. Actually, I picked a core set and a couple of add-ons (and even supported a KS campaign) last year and sadly have yet to play. I thought the rules were a bit dense back then. Now, I just finished going through the new rules and I think they make more sense in this version. I still think they are a bit intimidating, especially for someone who is fairly new to miniature gaming. Although it may seem complicated and the learning curve steep, I think once I play it a few times or watch some more games it should start to be clear. One thing I thought was that it would be nice if there were 2 versions of the gameplay: Beginners with simplified rules and Advanced with all rules applying. Perhaps even a 3rd version -Competitive level or RPG realism. For example, at beginners level, the main objective(s) would be something like a death match or capture the flag/post/resources with less modifiers, less actions, less end-round modifiers and suppression tests. I believe this would ease the learning curve and make someone like me feel like I'm actually playing the game (especially since my game time is severely limited). Thanks for listening!

I think we're starting to get a clear game plan in my mind at least, and this comment is really helpful to get me to see that...

So what we have right now (in 1st edition), is a very dense quickstart guide and a very dense rule book. Both are hard to unpack for a new player. I realize that. If Matt or I are there showing someone, it runs smoothly, but without that, there are hiccups and a lot of questions. So... what I'd propose is: a new quickstart, that runs through the very basics of the game, in order, as it's happening, with a narrative theme and some images of models moving, attacking, etc... Then we leave this 46 pager mostly intact (with some changes that have been suggested, or have yet to be suggested), and then we do the main rule book with more of the quickstart feel, where there's more room to use diagrams, images, narrative play-throughs, and such. That means that this 46 page document is more of a quick reference, that we can get done in a short amount of time, and have printed for adepticon, and still have all of the rules needed to play in one place, without removing or relegating them to the back or leaving them out altogether. So: basic rules would be about 4 pages (if I can make that fit), regular rules would be this 46 page document, which gives you a lot to start with, and will be a free PDF download), and then have the main rulebook, which adds more background and backstory, archetypes, faction info, and has a lot more room for expanded and advanced rules.

As a new player, what are your thoughts on that?
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Wreck Age 2nd edition basic rules beta 3 months 1 week ago #2835

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That actually sounds like a very good plan. Sort of like most D&D-style RPG's, and some table top skirmish/combat games which add a quick guide that usually features a simplified game play scenario with pictures explaining the rules and basic setups -and even a sample narration. First, I need to understand the mechanics and overall intention of the game; sort of the how and the why. Once I have a good grip on these elements, then I love to add RPG narratives and complexity and, if available, explore its expanded universe (is anyone thinking on novels or short stories?). I would buy this advanced rules book, especially if it was available in hard cover. At any rate, I will definitely do my best to attend your "workshops" or gaming events (I live in Chicago).
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Wreck Age 2nd edition basic rules beta 3 months 1 week ago #2836

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The main problem I've had with the first edition of WA is not the backstory (which I dig) or the models (which are awesome) but the perceived (by me, anyway) difficulty of separating the skirmish rules from the RPG rules, especially as it relates to coming up with a crew. I'll admit, I'm just not an RPG guy at this point in my life, so I pretty much just want the skirmish rules. I found the current edition of the rules difficult to separate. Looking over this 48-page doc, if this is basically the skirmish rules split out with references to the full book (which holds the full and the artwork and the RPG stuff), then I think that's a step in the right direction.

Overall, I still think the rules seem a little dense. There's a ton there for a skirmish-style game. However, I am a hobby hero and a simpleton, so take that as you will.
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Wreck Age 2nd edition basic rules beta 3 months 1 week ago #2837

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"GC: Hey Man, tried looking over the rules
I don't have any advice haha It's all over my head and I haven't played in so long (any ttg) in general I wouldn't know what advice to give

Me: "as a rusty player it was over my head" is not useless info. Anything in particular a head scratcher?

GC: oh I meant that by I just don't even know
my rules all go back to Warhammer and that's all my brain thinks
I remember playing with you and it was pretty good

Me:I'll post that. That has been part of the problem. We can guide it well.

GC: But, i'm talking 8th edition Warhammer

ME: Good thing you are so handsome dumb dumb

GC:I also need to play a game and test it too, so if you ever do that let me know. Me just reading it doesn't do it for me

ME: I would like that. Been too long."

TL:DR- The new visual quick start could definitely ease our barrier to introduction right now.
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Wreck Age 2nd edition basic rules beta 3 months 1 week ago #2838

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atomsmasher wrote:
The main problem I've had with the first edition of WA is not the backstory (which I dig) or the models (which are awesome) but the perceived (by me, anyway) difficulty of separating the skirmish rules from the RPG rules, especially as it relates to coming up with a crew.

This was my problem early on too. And, I still get the two mixed up sometimes ( :lol: ).

I won't speak for Anton, but that is an issue we are trying to resolve.
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Wreck Age 2nd edition basic rules beta 3 months 1 week ago #2839

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My personal thoughts-

We shot for the moon combining the RPG and skirmish elements and fell short. Happens in most endeavors with lofty goals. Thankfully splitting them has been one of the easier parts of this transition so far, at least by appearances.

Having played D6 systems that attempted to wholly recreate realism (Shadowrun cough Shadowrun) I actually find our rules a lot less crunchy than most. You won't see too many formulae in our text blocks thankfully and I don't think the slivers of reality we are attempting slow things down that much, but reading the responses I may be mistaken there.

I have to admit I am intrigued with "advanced" rules where before I was staunchly against it. Would any of you guys in favor of it be able to put together a quick list of rules you consider advanced? That would have to be step one if we were going to ponder that, in my opinion.

That being said, I can't see any of us budging on doing away with the d6 mechanic. Along with 28mm true scale, creative commons and scenarios named after punk songs that is woven into Wreck Age's (frayed) fabric.
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Wreck Age 2nd edition basic rules beta 3 months 1 week ago #2840

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msears wrote:
"GC: Hey Man, tried looking over the rules
I don't have any advice haha It's all over my head and I haven't played in so long (any ttg) in general I wouldn't know what advice to give

Me: "as a rusty player it was over my head" is not useless info. Anything in particular a head scratcher?

GC: oh I meant that by I just don't even know
my rules all go back to Warhammer and that's all my brain thinks
I remember playing with you and it was pretty good

Me:I'll post that. That has been part of the problem. We can guide it well.

GC: But, i'm talking 8th edition Warhammer

ME: Good thing you are so handsome dumb dumb

GC:I also need to play a game and test it too, so if you ever do that let me know. Me just reading it doesn't do it for me

ME: I would like that. Been too long."

TL:DR- The new visual quick start could definitely ease our barrier to introduction right now.

I feel like I just watched an episode of Drunk History.

Into it.
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Wreck Age 2nd edition basic rules beta 3 months 1 week ago #2841

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msears wrote:
My personal thoughts-

We shot for the moon combining the RPG and skirmish elements and fell short. Happens in most endeavors with lofty goals. Thankfully splitting them has been one of the easier parts of this transition so far, at least by appearances.

Having played D6 systems that attempted to wholly recreate realism (Shadowrun cough Shadowrun) I actually find our rules a lot less crunchy than most. You won't see too many formulae in our text blocks thankfully and I don't think the slivers of reality we are attempting slow things down that much, but reading the responses I may be mistaken there.

I have to admit I am intrigued with "advanced" rules where before I was staunchly against it. Would any of you guys in favor of it be able to put together a quick list of rules you consider advanced? That would have to be step one if we were going to ponder that, in my opinion.

That being said, I can't see any of us budging on doing away with the d6 mechanic. Along with 28mm true scale, creative commons and scenarios named after punk songs that is woven into Wreck Age's (frayed) fabric.

I think that the main problem with combining tabletop miniatures and narrative RPG comes down to space. We could do it effectively (now, on a 2nd attempt), but it might be a 400 page book. Splitting them out means that people can choose what they want to do, but the rules will feel familiar going from one to the other.
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Wreck Age 2nd edition basic rules beta 3 months 1 week ago #2842

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atomsmasher wrote:
The main problem I've had with the first edition of WA is not the backstory (which I dig) or the models (which are awesome) but the perceived (by me, anyway) difficulty of separating the skirmish rules from the RPG rules, especially as it relates to coming up with a crew. I'll admit, I'm just not an RPG guy at this point in my life, so I pretty much just want the skirmish rules. I found the current edition of the rules difficult to separate. Looking over this 48-page doc, if this is basically the skirmish rules split out with references to the full book (which holds the full and the artwork and the RPG stuff), then I think that's a step in the right direction.

Overall, I still think the rules seem a little dense. There's a ton there for a skirmish-style game. However, I am a hobby hero <strong>and a simpleton</strong>, so take that as you will.

What would help you as a new player, get into the game? What specific things could we put in that 4 page quickstart...

My initial thoughts are:

Pictures of miniatures doing the things we're talking about... maybe just 2 or 3, but important regardless.

So,
intro to the stat card (1 page)
turns, inititative, and movement (1 page)
shooting and fighting (1 page)
and the last page for a very basic scenario.

Anything I'm missing here? Anything else that we might want to see?
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Wreck Age 2nd edition basic rules beta 3 months 1 week ago #2844

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msears wrote:
I have to admit I am intrigued with "advanced" rules where before I was staunchly against it. Would any of you guys in favor of it be able to put together a quick list of rules you consider advanced? That would have to be step one if we were going to ponder that, in my opinion.

Off the top of my head the following would be pulled from the basic rules and made into advanced rules:
Target Number Modifiers (except for range, those should be basic)
Suppression
Malfunctions
Special Abilities/Skills (healing, etc)
Contested Actions* (mixed feelings on this one)
Elevation Changes (climbing, jumping, swimming)
Terrain
Weight capacity and weight values for items* (something I think we need anyway)

My reasoning is that the basic rules would cover just basic combat situations and movement. Any modifiers to combat might be limited to just the range of the weaponry used to avoid major confusion for new players.

The advanced rules would open up the "full" game experience with expanded skills, more action options, terrain interaction, etc.

I am basing this off Battletech. Battletech had some great basic rules that ignored a lot of the book keeping that is traditionally associated (and lambasted) with the game. You ignored heat tracking, ammo tracking, and critical hits in the basic rules and simply moved your `Mechs and shot/punched one another.

The advanced rules brought all of those missing elements in, and expanded things to include diverse terrain, atmospheric conditions, vehicles, air support and city fighting rules.

msears wrote:
That being said, I can't see any of us budging on doing away with the d6 mechanic. Along with 28mm true scale, creative commons and scenarios named after punk songs that is woven into Wreck Age's (frayed) fabric.

Huh. I never picked up on the punk references but that wasn't my favorite genre of music. Now my scenarios named after German and American Industrial songs don't seem so bad! :)

Anton wrote:
atomsmasher wrote:
The main problem I've had with the first edition of WA is not the backstory (which I dig) or the models (which are awesome) but the perceived (by me, anyway) difficulty of separating the skirmish rules from the RPG rules, especially as it relates to coming up with a crew. I'll admit, I'm just not an RPG guy at this point in my life, so I pretty much just want the skirmish rules. I found the current edition of the rules difficult to separate. Looking over this 48-page doc, if this is basically the skirmish rules split out with references to the full book (which holds the full and the artwork and the RPG stuff), then I think that's a step in the right direction.

Overall, I still think the rules seem a little dense. There's a ton there for a skirmish-style game. However, I am a hobby hero <strong>and a simpleton</strong>, so take that as you will.

What would help you as a new player, get into the game? What specific things could we put in that 4 page quickstart...

My initial thoughts are:

Pictures of miniatures doing the things we're talking about... maybe just 2 or 3, but important regardless.

So,
intro to the stat card (1 page)
turns, inititative, and movement (1 page)
shooting and fighting (1 page)
and the last page for a very basic scenario.

Anything I'm missing here? Anything else that we might want to see?

If 4 pages is the limit I don't think you can get much more content than what you have posted above.

I am always an advocate for a reference page (tables, charts, whatever is needed to play) but I don't know if that is necessary for a basic rules run-down.
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Wreck Age 2nd edition basic rules beta 3 months 1 week ago #2845

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I think it's okay to leave the basic scenario on it's own sheet like it is now.

You can use that fourth page for something else, or even a little teaser of the back story? (or tables!)

just an idea.

I really like where this is headed.


I also think that perhaps basic terrain rules can stay in the basic section... it is a concept that most people are familiar with, and since you really need terrain to play, it needs to be discussed. fancy terrain rules could move to advanced, though.
Last Edit: 3 months 1 week ago by jlopatin.
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Wreck Age 2nd edition basic rules beta 3 months 1 week ago #2846

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jlopatin wrote:
I think it's okay to leave the basic scenario on it's own sheet like it is now.

You can use that fourth page for something else, or even a little teaser of the back story? (or tables!)

just an idea.

I really like where this is headed.


I also think that perhaps basic terrain rules can stay in the basic section... it is a concept that most people are familiar with, and since you really need terrain to play, it needs to be discussed. fancy terrain rules could move to advanced, though.

What would you consider "fancy terrain" rules?
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Wreck Age 2nd edition basic rules beta 3 months 1 week ago #2847

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Here's the PDF of the rough first draft of the quickstart guide. I want to inject a more narrative flow to it, and have at least 2 more spaces for images (the black box for movement is going to be replaced with models actually doing the movement, taking up about the same amount of space.

www.dropbox.com/s/c8bgueoc82vo8co/WreckA...kStart2ndEd.pdf?dl=0

What can I cull from this document? I need at least a column freed up for narrative content and images.
Last Edit: 3 months 1 week ago by Anton.
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Wreck Age 2nd edition basic rules beta 3 months 1 week ago #2848

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link isn't working. repost?
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Wreck Age 2nd edition basic rules beta 3 months 1 week ago #2849

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jlopatin wrote:
link isn't working. repost?

Try it now.
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Wreck Age 2nd edition basic rules beta 3 months 1 week ago #2850

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Anton wrote:
Here's the PDF of the rough first draft of the quickstart guide. I want to inject a more narrative flow to it, and have at least 2 more spaces for images (the black box for movement is going to be replaced with models actually doing the movement, taking up about the same amount of space.

www.dropbox.com/s/c8bgueoc82vo8co/WreckA...kStart2ndEd.pdf?dl=0

What can I cull from this document? I need at least a column freed up for narrative content and images.

Perhaps remove the Training Level break-down. If we are removing suppression tests from the basic rules, will nerves tests need to be explained? You could have a simple sentence explaining how Training Levels affect different aspects of a character's abilities and leave it at that.

For example:
Training indicates a character’s general ability, experience, and discipline. It is used to determine target numbers for Nerves tests and determines the number of skills and traits a character will have.

That would free up about 1/2 of a column.

Also, does the Shooting TN Table need to be present when the same information is given a few paragraphs above in the Attack Roll TN table? Losing the Shooting TN Table would get you to your column goal along with removing the Training break-down.
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Wreck Age 2nd edition basic rules beta 3 months 1 week ago #2851

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agreed. I would remove all references to nerves tests and target numbers, and the bit about suppression in the nerves definition.

maybe make the various training levels into a table? you could squeeze a little more space that way...

I can give it a more detailed read through after work.
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Wreck Age 2nd edition basic rules beta 3 months 1 week ago #2852

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Been working on it most of the day. I think I got it. I had to shrink the text to 7 point, and I messed with the leading (line spacing) which is all smaller than I wanted, but there's enough room now.

I'm going to take some quick pictures of the models in action tomorrow and I'll post an update.
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Wreck Age 2nd edition basic rules beta 3 months 1 week ago #2854

  • insomniak1
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I agree with most of the suggestions and changes made already. I am a bit foggy on the "Initiative Phase". Is this test done for every character played, a chosen main character or a collective Wit number (all chars' wits counted)? So far I'm liking it the progress.
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Wreck Age 2nd edition basic rules beta 3 months 1 week ago #2855

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insomniak1 wrote:
I agree with most of the suggestions and changes made already. I am a bit foggy on the "Initiative Phase". Is this test done for every character played, a chosen main character or a collective Wit number (all chars' wits counted)? So far I'm liking it the progress.

The initiative test is done once per crew every turn, using the leader/Player Character's Wits test to determine how many dice you roll. You do not add everyone's Wits together, you only use the Player Character's Wits, although there are traits and gear that allow you to boost it in various ways (but that's beyond the basics).
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Wreck Age 2nd edition basic rules beta 3 months 1 week ago #2856

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Updated the quickstart. It's come a long way since yesterday. I have one image included. The rest will follow this format, so before working those up, I wanted to see how people liked this visual image included for Movement. Is it helpful?

I'd like to do one for initiative if I can find the space, and one for shooting, and one for fighting (and maybe damage if I can fit it).

www.dropbox.com/s/c8bgueoc82vo8co/WreckA...kStart2ndEd.pdf?dl=0
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Wreck Age 2nd edition basic rules beta 3 months 1 week ago #2857

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looks pretty good. If you want to make some more space, each section header looks really big in relation to the body text...
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Wreck Age 2nd edition basic rules beta 3 months 1 week ago #2858

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I think generally the quick start is in the getting the info that should be there phase but it really needs narrative to make the rules approachable. What you have here reads more like the basic rules pamphlet as opposed to a quick start guide. Since by reading it i still don't know how to start a game, who is playing, what order things are happening in. I can read all the rules but I can't tell you what models are doing in what order. I think I'm saying that right.

I'll try to give a example forgive my out of mythos terms. The Reavers and Angrons hussies both are after the boars on this small farm. The reavers jim, larry and bob all have knives, bob being the big wig also has a sniper rifle. The reavers have just recently been forced out into the wastes so they are all green(insert table pertaining tho levels) Angron carries a pistol and sword while he is backed up by only one hussy wearing armor while carrying a rifle. They have been out surviving so Angron is elite and his hussy is trained(whatever). Angron and Bob roll initiative(insert initiative explanation) to see who sets up and goes first. Bob wins.....

This would continue to the end inserting appropriate image, table or copy pasted rule explanation till the end phase, which for a quick start guide could be left out entirely. I really think this will get over the barrier of entry issue. There are great models, cool terrain, super cool fluff/background don't stomp on the excitement with a table that has no bearing on anything to anyone. If they don't know how the game works yet they don't care about the tables.

Have a look at the quick start rules for x-wing, currently the best selling miniatures game, its no accident I was able to learn to play half drunk on a one foot square cushioned bar stool outside of games day and can still walk you through how to play the basic game. Yes it is not the whole game and it is frankly boring at that level but it gets the foot in the door which is the point.
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Wreck Age 2nd edition basic rules beta 3 months 1 week ago #2859

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Ironheart wrote:
I think generally the quick start is in the getting the info that should be there phase but it really needs narrative to make the rules approachable. What you have here reads more like the basic rules pamphlet as opposed to a quick start guide. Since by reading it i still don't know how to start a game, who is playing, what order things are happening in. I can read all the rules but I can't tell you what models are doing in what order. I think I'm saying that right.

I'll try to give a example forgive my out of mythos terms. The Reavers and Angrons hussies both are after the boars on this small farm. The reavers jim, larry and bob all have knives, bob being the big wig also has a sniper rifle. The reavers have just recently been forced out into the wastes so they are all green(insert table pertaining tho levels) Angron carries a pistol and sword while he is backed up by only one hussy wearing armor while carrying a rifle. They have been out surviving so Angron is elite and his hussy is trained(whatever). Angron and Bob roll initiative(insert initiative explanation) to see who sets up and goes first. Bob wins.....

This would continue to the end inserting appropriate image, table or copy pasted rule explanation till the end phase, which for a quick start guide could be left out entirely. I really think this will get over the barrier of entry issue. There are great models, cool terrain, super cool fluff/background don't stomp on the excitement with a table that has no bearing on anything to anyone. If they don't know how the game works yet they don't care about the tables.

Have a look at the quick start rules for x-wing, currently the best selling miniatures game, its no accident I was able to learn to play half drunk on a one foot square cushioned bar stool outside of games day and can still walk you through how to play the basic game. Yes it is not the whole game and it is frankly boring at that level but it gets the foot in the door which is the point.

Working on that now...

below the movement image:

The Beast Handler has a Movement of 3. During her activation, she may use her AP of 3 to move in any direction, either by walking, running, or sprinting for the distances listed for each movement action.

For each attribute, something like this:
7. Power (P)
P(ower) represents the raw strength and resilience of a character. It is also used when determining feats of strength, as well as also being used for both attack and defense; in a fistfight, this attribute is used to determine potential damage inflicted upon an enemy, and conversely, to determine if a character avoids that damage from the enemy’s blow. Weapons have their own Power attribute, which is used whenever attacking with that weapon to determine the potential damage inflicted. The Beast Handler has a Power of 2. Alllowing her to roll 2 dice to defend against incoming attacks and also allows her to roll 2 dice for damage from Fighting attacks.

Will carry that through the entire document.
Last Edit: 3 months 1 week ago by Anton.
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Wreck Age 2nd edition basic rules beta 3 months 1 week ago #2860

  • Dragonslayer
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Hmmm... Where to start....I've done a basic read through of the beta and am working on digesting the changes.

First my disclaimer: I do not recommend anyone make business/Kickstarter decisions on my opinions. I have come to the conclusion that I am NOT representative of the typical or standard gamer. My thoughts on aesthetic, style, and complexity in most games will not be in the majority. You have been warned. That being said I'm definitely happy to give opinions and critiques.

The Beta document feels/reads like a rules reference document. Many games including Warmachine, Malifaux and D&D have similar clean/bland rules documents available as free downloads, so this seems like something players are wanting. A quick start with combat example images and pregen crews would be a great addition.

I'm still reading through this thread, so I'll be adding bits and blurbs to my comments over the evening.
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Wreck Age 2nd edition basic rules beta 3 months 1 week ago #2861

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Do you want typos/formatting critique?

What is happening to Archetypes in the new rules?



Some of my thoughts on 1st Ed.

I did read the book to learn the rules without a demo. I could understand things well enough. The biggest problem I had was the density and disorganization of the rules, not the rules themselves. Many things were duplicated in multiple places, while some needed other rules in other chapters that weren't always referenced.

The RPG never felt like it had any separate rules, more like things tacked on to the skirmish game. The RPG content was very lite and the game as an rpg could have just as easily been played with Fate or another generic narrative rpg system. Some skills affected the skirmish game while others didn't, and this was a problem which appears to be fixed now that skills are reserved for the rpg.

Crew building was easy and fun. I think I built a crew before reading all the game rules.


Overall Wreck-Age has been a middle ground skirmish. It isn't streamlined enough for me to consider light or simple (song of blades and heroes), but also not super heavy or deep (Infinity/Malifaux). My thought has been that Wreck-Age can veer two ways. Either tighter and more streamlined with simplified gameplay and reduced modifiers, or more thematic and "old school." Maybe this is the wargame vs. rpg divide.
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